Forthrightness, clarity, honesty, decency and humbleness underlie the work and persona of Cornelia Hahn Oberlander, the world’s most significant landscape architect. Cornelia has shaped world conception of how land shapes cities. Her work, Cornelia said in an interview with the CCA in 2018, is “the critical need to realize a sustainable future at a global scale and the necessity to involve all sectors of society in this quest.”

Cornelia learned about plants as a small child in Mülheim an der Ruhr from her horticulturist mother, Beate Hahn, whose book on gardening for children Cornelia gave me. Cornelia learned fortitude from her uncle Kurt Hahn, founder of Gordonstoun School. In her simple yet technically innovative commitment to basic facts—from drainage, black and grey water, earthmoving, plant species, playgrounds encouraging children’s self-reliance, or even roof tops that transform an office building into a park—form Yellowknife to Berlin, Cornelia teaches that landscape architecture “must be viewed holistically in terms of plant relationships as well as the genius loci, or spirit of the place.”

Phyllis Lambert

MdV

It is 16 January 2018 and I’m here with Cornelia Oberlander in Vancouver. We are going to talk about your work, and your archive of your work.

CHO

Yesterday I showed you my portfolio of what I worked on in New York for the Regional Plan Association—an internship for two years. My next step was to move to Philadelphia, to the Citizen’s Council on city planning which is an agency that was to promote a better understanding of zoning and city planning in Philadelphia. The city planning commission was headed by Edmund Bacon, city planner, and Oscar Stonorov, the architect, advising the City Planning Commission. Do you know about it?

MdV

I don’t.

CHO

You have to learn about him. He had the idea for the Better Philadelphia exhibition which was in Gimbles department store. It showed to the citizens of Philadelphia that certain planning ideas would make their lives better.

MdV

So the New York internship…

CHO

…was more technical and this was citizens oriented.

MdV

But did the internship prepare you in any way for the work in Philadelphia?

CHO

It prepared me in that I understood the importance of planning, and that I should promote through lectures and citizens’ meetings a better understanding of city planning.

MdV

And can you explain what you did in Philadelphia?

CHO

In Philadelphia I was in charge of the office of the Citizen’s Council on City Planning. I had to go to North Philadelphia to explain the importance of zoning, which was very technical and then I had an operation “fix-up” which was to work on the slums of Philadelphia: to paint up the houses, clean out the mess in the lane, and have community gardens. I made a playground there called 18th and Bigler St, that was my first public commission. And I did all the drawings, details, specifications and everything, it should be downstairs or it’s already at the CCA.

MdV

How do you look back on that work?

CHO

It was very important because it gave an insight into citizens’ participation and working for the citizens to make their life better.

MdV

It was early in terms of citizens’ participation.

CHO

Yes, the first in the city.

MdV

So it is also a matter of the citizens to understand that they should participate.

CHO

Yes and this was very difficult because there was a lot of racial tension. Same as today.

MdV

And were you able to overcome that problem?

CHO

No.

MdV

So how did it turn out in the end?

CHO

I went to work for Louis Kahn on a housing project, called Mills Creek. The drawing is at the University of Pennsylvania in the archives. One day Oskar Stonorov saw me doing a little park in the office of the Citizens’ council, and he was on the board, and he said: Did you do this park? I said Yes, I’m a landscape architect, and I can do little parks, so that little park was a moment in which he said: You should come to my office, I’m working on the Walter Reuther building in Detroit, and I need a landscape plan by tomorrow morning. So after work I went to Oscar Stonorov’s office to design the landscape for Walter Reuther’s building. He picked it up the next morning at 8 o’clock and liked it and it was built. And what did I know about Detroit? Nothing. It’s very cold there, that’s all I knew…

MdV

You were saying earlier, when we spoke about your relationship with architects, that you want to always collaborate with an architect, not just work as a landscape architect. This was in a way your first professional collaboration. But when did you realize this, the fact you want to work with an architect?

CHO

At Harvard. I realized that my fellow-landscape architects were interested in flowers and borders and all this nonsense and did not understand that you could sculpt the earth.

MdV

So you would say that you need the architect to articulate the landscape?

CHO

Yes. Yes, I found that out right away.

MdV

And do you think the architects also need the landscape architects?

CHO

Yes but they didn’t know that. They still don’t know that, not all of them anyway. But Arthur (Erickson), here, knew he needed a landscape architect at the very beginning of each project because every building needed a fit to the site. He had a feeling for the land. I always thought that if he wasn’t an architect he would have been a landscape architect. I always look to collaborate with architects. It is not always possible, but that’s the way I work.

MdV

But in terms of your approach to design?

CHO

It is about team work.

MdV

And would you say that your work has changed overtime?

CHO

No. it hasn’t. I work from a concept. To develop a concept you need to do research, and then I work from concept to working drawings and implementation with supervision (from me). That is my style of working.

MdV

And can you describe this research?

CHO

For instance, the building of VanDusen Botanical Garden in Vancouver. I realized that Peter Busby wanted to have a roof that represented a flower, à la (Karl) Blossfeldt. I knew a local orchid that would be the right one so I brought that to the office and that became the inspiration for the form of the roof. It is a building that answers to Cascadia Green Building Council, which is a much more stringent rating than LEED: there’s recycling water with the green roof, with heating coils for the water—you’ve got to see it, it’s outstanding. And the research was for instance to find a grass that did not grow three feet high, a grass that would be suitable for our climate and needed mowing only once a year. So that is research into where do you get the grass, what grasses are you getting, how are you going to plant on such a roof… and for that I have that big library.

MdV

So you use nursery catalogues?

CHO

No, the nursery catalogues are secondary. For instance for my green roof in Moshe Safdie’s library I researched with American hydrotech technique, and I was able to perfect this by knowing that I needed a protection layer, a drainage layer and a lightweight growing medium, and that is how I work. I’m one of the few landscape architects of this older generation that knows how to build. At Harvard I had a very good course in construction, and I learned a lot from my collaboration with architects.

MdV

Who inspired you, maybe in different periods of your life?

CHO

Who really inspired me is Dan Kiley. I could not write specifications for Oskar Storonov’s Schuylkill Falls or for Millcreek Housing, so Oskar Stonorov thought, oh we get Dan Kiley to teach Cornelia to do that. So it turned out I had to go to live in Charlotte, Vermont, and work there, and that was day and night. But I didn’t ever get to write a spec because he put me on a very difficult job called the Mondawmin shopping centre for the Rouse brothers and I had to figure out the grading and everything. And so I never worked on the specs and I had to learn myself afterwards to write them. But Dan Kiley was important because he as well as I did very simple designs. We were a very good match. The Cultural Landscape Foundation has a good movie about that, you have to talk to Charles Birnbaum. There you learn a lot about Cornelia.

MdV

Can you think of other people that inspired you?

CHO

No, I learnt really mostly from myself.

MdV

And how was your collaboration with your husband?

CHO

Yes, from him I learnt a great deal. Well, we learned from each other, we were partners. From Peter I learned for instance how to make a regional landscape in Hawaii, which is: at first trees are the coconuts, the second layer of trees are the flamboyants, and the third layer, when you go higher up the mountains, are the jacarandas. Peter was important for my conceptual thinking. Don’t think little, think big. Peter went to Black Mountain College after McGill, so we were full of Bauhaus…

MdV

If you think of the way you design, and maybe these are different ways for different kinds of projects, but can you describe it in more detail? You said there is period of research, and then there’s the concept…

CHO

Yes, and then there is hopefully the acceptance and the implementation which is the carrying out of the idea.

MdV

When you think about a project, do you have a very clear idea from the beginning or is that idea being changed during the research process?

CHO

No, the concept is done, and I keep it, I don’t change often, the concept is or becomes the inspiration. For Robson Square the concept was to reimport nature into the city and I managed to do that.

MdV

Was it a matter of you wanting to do something new or was it because you thought it was important to include more green in that part of Vancouver, which is very urban?

CHO

Well, the idea was to make a park on top of the provincial government complex, that was the scene.

MdV

And was that your idea or Arthur’s idea?

CHO

My idea, but Arthur of course was very supportive, some people weren’t supportive though.

MdV

Why not?

CHO

Because they didn’t think that they wanted a park.

MdV

Is there any particular project that is very dear to you?

CHO

The Museum of Anthropology. I am proud that I was able to get the water inlet into the landscape that Arthur wanted from the very beginning. The museum is probably the dearest project because it’s in the spirit of Arthur. I wrote about it. I don’t write too much because I’m a doer and not a writer, but I have to learn that.

MdV

And if we look at this house, your own house, how would you describe your garden here?

CHO

All native.

MdV

And what do you mean with that?

CHO

If we want to be successful in this part of the world with climate change, we should only use the plants that were described by Archibald Menzies as he came up the coast with Captain George Vancouver, and documented our landscape. That is our ecology. And this garden, here, except for the fruit trees, is our ecology. Rhododendrons and ferns and moss…

MdV

So did you just let them grow, or how did that happen?

CHO

No I planted it in 1970, and I’ve never changed it, nothing. Don’t add to it, don’t subtract from it, it’s perfect. And everybody’s enjoying it.

MdV

You’re saying that you pioneered in many ways, you tried to do new things.

CHO

Yes, to bring the profession to a different level, that is important to me, like at the VanDusen Botanical Garden.

MdV

What is there in that project that is so crucial?

CHO

That the waters are recycled, that the heating of the water is done with coils on the roof, and that the black water is taken care of and cleaned underneath a paved surface.

MdV

And if you think of other categories of your work? You worked on a lot of residences.

CHO

No, very few, I don’t do gardens. Maybe landscapes for gardens, but I don’t like to wind up to be a psychiatrist and I don’t have time for that.

MdV

Let’s talk about the playgrounds you designed.

CHO

Well there’s one park here that is fantastic, up the street, and people just love it. It has no playground equipment, the kids play with sticks and stones.

MdV

Why were you so interested in the playground?

CHO

Because I had a lot of kids and they had to learn to play and find their own way. I believe very strongly in children making their own environment.

MdV

How do you communicate your ideas on playgrounds?

CHO

By going to meetings and talking about them. That’s how I communicate. Not by written statements. Written statements often become frozen and you want to keep in flux.

MdV

Do you also see yourself as a teacher to a younger generation?

CHO

Yes I do. Each year I mentor one or two students at UBC. This year I had a student from Mongolia who was studying the city and she was very bright. She was fascinating. Then I had another student from Kashmir who was doing a green roof. So I have each year two or three students and I try to teach them concepts, research, implementation … So for instance if I want to know about drainage, I would look into a technical book on drainage, and maybe establish a rainwater garden according to the latest principles that are being advertised.

MdV

Now regarding your archive, a big part of which is already at the CCA…

CHO

Yes, quite a bit, and it’s meant to be for people to learn about landscape architecture and how you could improve the profession.

MdV

Right. Yesterday we talked about the existing descriptions and it strikes me your projects are all titled as if it were a building, do you agree on that? For example, your work for Robson Square is called ‘Robson Square’, not “landscape design for Robson Square”.

CHO

Yes, of course, it’s a building. You would say Robson Square is a building with a park on top. That is the right description. And Arthur understood that. But let’s visualize 1974: who knew about roof gardens then? Who knew about lightweight growing medium? Who knew about drainage? I had to figure this all out.

MdV

When did you meet Phyllis Lambert?

CHO

Ah, I thought that was hilarious. I met Phyllis when I served on the National Capital Commission. She was on the planning committee and I was on the design committee, and once a year we would have meetings together and I met her during one of these meetings. She was in overalls, just like you saw in the photos, and being very bombastic, and everybody was listening to her…

MdV

In which year was that?

CHO

I served on the NCC, from 1975 to ’82 so it must have been at the end of the seventies.

MdV

And you met her then, she was at that point I think setting up the CCA, but your archive arrived much later of course.

CHO

Yes, the archive arrived in 1991, I think.

MdV

That must have been the first instalment. The CCA has been collecting architecture archives on an international scale…

CHO

Yes but not landscape.

MdV

And do you think it would be important for the CCA to collect more work of landscape architects?

CHO

Yes, I think so.

MdV

What do you think is most significant of your archive that resides at the CCA?

CHO

First of all I think the playground for Expo 67. And secondly the VanDusen Botanical Garden. That is way ahead of its time… And then Robson Square, a park on top of a building. We have so little room for green spaces in cities that this is the only answer. And then my lectures, you know, the lectures are very interesting, and I think they should be published.

MdV

You’re always using a lot of images with your lectures.

CHO

Yes, I have good images. I’m just asked as of last night to come to give a lecture on the project in Yellowknife at UBC, so I put together all the slides and talk how we sighted the building, the architects, the engineers, and everyone together. I have good illustrations for that.

MdV

What is it that you’re so interested in there, in the North?

CHO

Well I had a chance there. I had a chance there to not rob the biodiversity but to restore it. And I found a way how to do it, I mean this is an invention.

MdV

It must be difficult grounds to work on.

CHO

There was no available soil.

MdV

You explained in a lecture at the CCA that you would look for the seeds in the surroundings and you would try to grow them and then put them back.

CHO

Well, I would take the plant, cuttings of the plant, and the seeds, and propagate them in Vancouver in a propagation facility and then put them back. Instead of making planting beds, I would nestle the plants just into the rock and that is called invisible mending.

MdV

Are you still working on the landscape of the National Gallery?

CHO

Yeah. At the time I took advantage of the fact that construction was taking place during the design and because we went on fast track… I sat back and waited. My initial reaction to the construction site was that I worked with what was found. I discovered when digging for soil there, that the area was covered with flat rocks, so I exposed them and we positioned others, some weighing as much as ten tons, that had been excavated during the construction. I asked them to dig them for me all at once. Here in Susan Herrington’s book: “Half a century ago Norman Newton predicted that only if biological, mechanical, assigned, and affective functions were included in landscape architectural design did ‘our approach deserve to be called functional design’.” That was one of my professors at Harvard. And here it says: “her drive was given momentum in the late 1980s when Peter gave her a report by the Brundtland Commission, called Our Common Future.” And that is the key to my work. “The report gave evidence of the critical need to realize a sustainable future at a global scale and the necessity to involve all sectors of society in this quest. He placed it in her hands and said, ‘Cornelia, this document will change the way you practice.’”¹ I can assure you.